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	<title>Comments on: Why I love Angel more than Buffy</title>
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	<description>Too Much Time On Our Hands: Opinions, Theories and More</description>
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		<title>By: Jhonny from Uppsala</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgeeking.com/2008/06/29/why-i-love-angel-more-than-buffy/comment-page-1/#comment-51</link>
		<dc:creator>Jhonny from Uppsala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 07:52:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgeeking.com/?p=6#comment-51</guid>
		<description>A little rather essay-like (sorry &#039;bout that.) reply to Melvins post.


The plan I refer to was the evolution and growth of the characters, which were well thought out in advance and played out well over the years. The major villains you point out are by default rather season bound. But even in this a plan is to be found behind it all. 

Season 1 is a stand alone (half) season made to stand on its own if the show dident get picked up. At its core it is about horror movie clichés and the introduction to High School as Hell. This is manifested as the Master living, more or less, under the school with a almost dutyfull whish to bring hell into Sunnydale. 
   
Season 2 is the rebirth of the show with extra soupopera added. This season is focused adolesens, loss of innocence and so on. The Scoobies start to mature and grow but are still kids and rather naive. This is manifested through the villains Spike and Drusilla, who are indeed entertaining but also rather teenagey in their outacting kind of way.
    
Season 3. This is the comming of age. The Buffy world is expanded into the whole of Sunnydale and Buffyn her self is confronted with the responabilitys of maturehood, like how to respond to the laws and society around her. Naturaly the big bads of the season represents this. First the Mayor, a authority figure with a love for order and the good old values, and Faith, Buffys dark sister with no morals and a disregard for others as well as any kind of authority.
   
Season 4. Well, we are grown up so now we move into the big world. Welcome collage and the existential angst of having to take controle of your own life as well as growing apart from old friends and into a new identity. In this season we also crack the buble of fantasy and magic the Scoobies been living in for three years. The cold calculating world of government and military are introduced, as a matter of logic. The potential of magic and the demon world must sooner or later clash with the more mundane. Of course this results in the rather boring, but nessesary Adam, a hybrid of both worlds who is on a quest for self understanding.

Season 5. In the last season the Scoobies were thrust into the big world and matured quite a lot as individuals. This season is about family and starting to take responsabilty for your self as well as others. Hence the introduction of Dawn as well as Tara being turned into a baby for Willow to nurse. The Big Bad Glory serves to enhance this by putting Buffy up against a unbeatable enemy. The now grown individual Buffy is faced with how to care for Dawn as well as the wellbeing of the others in a almost unsolvable situation. She learns and selfsacrificingly does what she has to.

Season 6. On the surface a season about Buffy trying to cope with the loss of paradise and hers, as well as Willows, various selfdestructive ways of coping with the pain. A pain that in the end is all about facing the everyday problems. The problems of living. This is clearly shown in so many episodes like &quot;Normal Again&quot; and &quot;OMWF&quot;. The core of the season is very clearly how to grow into adulthood. Which gives us, as a contrast, villains that cant. The Nerd trio is petty and almost laughable in their childlike refusal to grow up and the very oposite of last years Hell-Goddes, but also the ones that does terrible damage. This of course triggers a likewise childlike tantrum in Willow.

Season 7. The last and most ideologicaly heavy season. As the First states in the first episode. Its all about Power. Who has it, who has not, and how to share it. Not surprisingly The First, Big Bad of Big Bads, is a non corporeal being who takes the form of Caleb an avatar of suppresive maskuline society who needs to be defeated. The second Big Bad, the army of Ûberwamps is only defeted when Buffy learns to share her power with women all over the world. Ideologicaly heavy, yes, but Joss knows what he whats.

If that is not a plan and a well thought long arc Im not sure of what is.

Melvin also points out that Buffy is for a long time rather black- white when it comes to demonfighting in contrast to Angels grey-scales. This is correct. Angel starts out as a rather mature person and series. Buffy on the other hand starts as a teenager with the black-white world view of a teenager. This is all part of the plan. As Buffy, and the series, go on she matures and learn the very hard and painfull way that things are indeed rather grey. As early as season 3 Buffy starts to live in the land of Grey, and when we hit season 4 she is the one who forces Riley to reevaluate his non thought through black-white world view. So the grey areas are there in Buffy to but not so outspooken and rather portrayed more like a process than Angels constant brooding.

In the end I think the mood of both shows complement each other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A little rather essay-like (sorry &#8217;bout that.) reply to Melvins post.</p>
<p>The plan I refer to was the evolution and growth of the characters, which were well thought out in advance and played out well over the years. The major villains you point out are by default rather season bound. But even in this a plan is to be found behind it all. </p>
<p>Season 1 is a stand alone (half) season made to stand on its own if the show dident get picked up. At its core it is about horror movie clichés and the introduction to High School as Hell. This is manifested as the Master living, more or less, under the school with a almost dutyfull whish to bring hell into Sunnydale. </p>
<p>Season 2 is the rebirth of the show with extra soupopera added. This season is focused adolesens, loss of innocence and so on. The Scoobies start to mature and grow but are still kids and rather naive. This is manifested through the villains Spike and Drusilla, who are indeed entertaining but also rather teenagey in their outacting kind of way.</p>
<p>Season 3. This is the comming of age. The Buffy world is expanded into the whole of Sunnydale and Buffyn her self is confronted with the responabilitys of maturehood, like how to respond to the laws and society around her. Naturaly the big bads of the season represents this. First the Mayor, a authority figure with a love for order and the good old values, and Faith, Buffys dark sister with no morals and a disregard for others as well as any kind of authority.</p>
<p>Season 4. Well, we are grown up so now we move into the big world. Welcome collage and the existential angst of having to take controle of your own life as well as growing apart from old friends and into a new identity. In this season we also crack the buble of fantasy and magic the Scoobies been living in for three years. The cold calculating world of government and military are introduced, as a matter of logic. The potential of magic and the demon world must sooner or later clash with the more mundane. Of course this results in the rather boring, but nessesary Adam, a hybrid of both worlds who is on a quest for self understanding.</p>
<p>Season 5. In the last season the Scoobies were thrust into the big world and matured quite a lot as individuals. This season is about family and starting to take responsabilty for your self as well as others. Hence the introduction of Dawn as well as Tara being turned into a baby for Willow to nurse. The Big Bad Glory serves to enhance this by putting Buffy up against a unbeatable enemy. The now grown individual Buffy is faced with how to care for Dawn as well as the wellbeing of the others in a almost unsolvable situation. She learns and selfsacrificingly does what she has to.</p>
<p>Season 6. On the surface a season about Buffy trying to cope with the loss of paradise and hers, as well as Willows, various selfdestructive ways of coping with the pain. A pain that in the end is all about facing the everyday problems. The problems of living. This is clearly shown in so many episodes like &#8220;Normal Again&#8221; and &#8220;OMWF&#8221;. The core of the season is very clearly how to grow into adulthood. Which gives us, as a contrast, villains that cant. The Nerd trio is petty and almost laughable in their childlike refusal to grow up and the very oposite of last years Hell-Goddes, but also the ones that does terrible damage. This of course triggers a likewise childlike tantrum in Willow.</p>
<p>Season 7. The last and most ideologicaly heavy season. As the First states in the first episode. Its all about Power. Who has it, who has not, and how to share it. Not surprisingly The First, Big Bad of Big Bads, is a non corporeal being who takes the form of Caleb an avatar of suppresive maskuline society who needs to be defeated. The second Big Bad, the army of Ûberwamps is only defeted when Buffy learns to share her power with women all over the world. Ideologicaly heavy, yes, but Joss knows what he whats.</p>
<p>If that is not a plan and a well thought long arc Im not sure of what is.</p>
<p>Melvin also points out that Buffy is for a long time rather black- white when it comes to demonfighting in contrast to Angels grey-scales. This is correct. Angel starts out as a rather mature person and series. Buffy on the other hand starts as a teenager with the black-white world view of a teenager. This is all part of the plan. As Buffy, and the series, go on she matures and learn the very hard and painfull way that things are indeed rather grey. As early as season 3 Buffy starts to live in the land of Grey, and when we hit season 4 she is the one who forces Riley to reevaluate his non thought through black-white world view. So the grey areas are there in Buffy to but not so outspooken and rather portrayed more like a process than Angels constant brooding.</p>
<p>In the end I think the mood of both shows complement each other.</p>
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		<title>By: Melvin from Calgary</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgeeking.com/2008/06/29/why-i-love-angel-more-than-buffy/comment-page-1/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>Melvin from Calgary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 08:56:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgeeking.com/?p=6#comment-32</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve often favored Angel over Buffy because they dealt a lot more with the gray areas of demons. For Buffy, up until Clem showed up, it was vampires and demons are bad, unless they were cursed with souls. You&#039;d have tons of episodes where Buffy goes on patrol, sees a demon in the cemetery and she&#039;s goes to fight it. They&#039;re usually evil. Even Anya, who eventually joined the ranks of the good guys, had to have the demon ripped out of her before she started being good, and not that good anyways. Spike, you had to shove a chip in his head or a soul to make him a good puppy. Clem was the only demon on that show who started out and ended off more like a regular person.

In Angel, demons are like reversed humans, but with exaggerated characteristics, whether they be physical, dietary, or otherwise. By reversed, I mean morally. They&#039;re predominantly evil, but that doesn&#039;t mean they all are. A majority of the demons that we see during Angel&#039;s run were like us, people working for a living, trying their best to feed their families and dealing with all the troubles of the world. 

As for the comment by Jhonny about Buffy having a more well thought out plan, uh, where was that? Season One, the Master, nothing to do with season two villains, Angel/Spike/Dru, which don&#039;t tie into third season baddie, Mayor Wilkins, who had nothing to say to cyborg, Adam, which was the opposite of repulsive goddess, Glory, who scoffed at Big Bad Willow, who was miles behind the final bad, the First Evil. I will give Buffy this, for planning, that they did Willow&#039;s descent to darkness well. When she first began the magicks, she was very immature with it, but when she got to college and Oz left her, she did that whole spell to do her will, that kind of reckless thing was like foreshadowing her future of magicks to make herself feel better and addiction to it.

Now let&#039;s take a look at Angel. Season one dealt with Wolfram and Hart, the Shanshu prophecy, Cordelia and the visions, and the return of Darla. Wolfram and Hart has been a major antagonist all throughout the series, the Shanshu prophecy was kind of the reward at the end of the day for Angel, which drove him a few times to keep up his helping the helpless angel, and Cordelia getting the visions have led to her becoming a stronger character that helps motivate Angel, becoming his sort of confidante/love interest, to becoming a champion in her own right, to a higher power, and to the mother of a demon. Darla played one of the bigger parts, for a non-regular cast member. She was a pawn for Wolfram and Hart to get Angel dark, source of guilt for him when he failed to save her and she vamped out again, became a villain tormenting him with the guilt, and his whore for a day, which in turn led to her being pregnant with his son, the only one he&#039;ll ever have, chances are, to relieving some of his guilt because she lives on through the kid, who ends up a good kid. And that&#039;s just stuff that was set up in season one! All that stuff plays all the way through to the end of the series.

Um...I think my point was, Buffy was more like I, good guy, you bad guy, me slay and a string of baddies, one trying to top the other until you end with the ultimate evil. Angel brought in the humanity of demons, if that makes sense, and how everything plays for a reason under this grand design. My post got a bit long and I&#039;m not sure how much sense I made so...yeah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve often favored Angel over Buffy because they dealt a lot more with the gray areas of demons. For Buffy, up until Clem showed up, it was vampires and demons are bad, unless they were cursed with souls. You&#8217;d have tons of episodes where Buffy goes on patrol, sees a demon in the cemetery and she&#8217;s goes to fight it. They&#8217;re usually evil. Even Anya, who eventually joined the ranks of the good guys, had to have the demon ripped out of her before she started being good, and not that good anyways. Spike, you had to shove a chip in his head or a soul to make him a good puppy. Clem was the only demon on that show who started out and ended off more like a regular person.</p>
<p>In Angel, demons are like reversed humans, but with exaggerated characteristics, whether they be physical, dietary, or otherwise. By reversed, I mean morally. They&#8217;re predominantly evil, but that doesn&#8217;t mean they all are. A majority of the demons that we see during Angel&#8217;s run were like us, people working for a living, trying their best to feed their families and dealing with all the troubles of the world. </p>
<p>As for the comment by Jhonny about Buffy having a more well thought out plan, uh, where was that? Season One, the Master, nothing to do with season two villains, Angel/Spike/Dru, which don&#8217;t tie into third season baddie, Mayor Wilkins, who had nothing to say to cyborg, Adam, which was the opposite of repulsive goddess, Glory, who scoffed at Big Bad Willow, who was miles behind the final bad, the First Evil. I will give Buffy this, for planning, that they did Willow&#8217;s descent to darkness well. When she first began the magicks, she was very immature with it, but when she got to college and Oz left her, she did that whole spell to do her will, that kind of reckless thing was like foreshadowing her future of magicks to make herself feel better and addiction to it.</p>
<p>Now let&#8217;s take a look at Angel. Season one dealt with Wolfram and Hart, the Shanshu prophecy, Cordelia and the visions, and the return of Darla. Wolfram and Hart has been a major antagonist all throughout the series, the Shanshu prophecy was kind of the reward at the end of the day for Angel, which drove him a few times to keep up his helping the helpless angel, and Cordelia getting the visions have led to her becoming a stronger character that helps motivate Angel, becoming his sort of confidante/love interest, to becoming a champion in her own right, to a higher power, and to the mother of a demon. Darla played one of the bigger parts, for a non-regular cast member. She was a pawn for Wolfram and Hart to get Angel dark, source of guilt for him when he failed to save her and she vamped out again, became a villain tormenting him with the guilt, and his whore for a day, which in turn led to her being pregnant with his son, the only one he&#8217;ll ever have, chances are, to relieving some of his guilt because she lives on through the kid, who ends up a good kid. And that&#8217;s just stuff that was set up in season one! All that stuff plays all the way through to the end of the series.</p>
<p>Um&#8230;I think my point was, Buffy was more like I, good guy, you bad guy, me slay and a string of baddies, one trying to top the other until you end with the ultimate evil. Angel brought in the humanity of demons, if that makes sense, and how everything plays for a reason under this grand design. My post got a bit long and I&#8217;m not sure how much sense I made so&#8230;yeah.</p>
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		<title>By: Jhonny from Uppsala</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgeeking.com/2008/06/29/why-i-love-angel-more-than-buffy/comment-page-1/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>Jhonny from Uppsala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:59:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgeeking.com/?p=6#comment-30</guid>
		<description>I do love Angel, but must confess that Im more of a Buffy man. To me Buffy had a much more consistant development and a more well thought out plan behind it.

Non the less, Angel have an edge that Buffy lacks. I like the darker tone, and would have loved for it to be as dark as Joss intended (again the network inserted the famous &quot;lighten up please&quot;) in the early versions of the pilot. A fate both Firefly and now Dollhouse also suffered. Even though Angel sometimes seems to lack the overarcing grand plan and well thought out writing *cough*season4*cough*, to me it completes the Buffy world and gives me the best of both worlds.

Why settle for one when you can have both!
/Satai</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do love Angel, but must confess that Im more of a Buffy man. To me Buffy had a much more consistant development and a more well thought out plan behind it.</p>
<p>Non the less, Angel have an edge that Buffy lacks. I like the darker tone, and would have loved for it to be as dark as Joss intended (again the network inserted the famous &#8220;lighten up please&#8221;) in the early versions of the pilot. A fate both Firefly and now Dollhouse also suffered. Even though Angel sometimes seems to lack the overarcing grand plan and well thought out writing *cough*season4*cough*, to me it completes the Buffy world and gives me the best of both worlds.</p>
<p>Why settle for one when you can have both!<br />
/Satai</p>
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		<title>By: Summer Brooks</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgeeking.com/2008/06/29/why-i-love-angel-more-than-buffy/comment-page-1/#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>Summer Brooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 02:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgeeking.com/?p=6#comment-23</guid>
		<description>Comparing Seasons 1-3 of Buffy with Seasons 1-3 of Angel does a disservice to Buffy, IMO.

It took Buffy a season and a half to really hit a stride.  &quot;Halloween&quot; and &quot;Lie to Me&quot; for me was where the story began to build an arc I could appreciate, rather than be the &quot;vampire chase of the week&quot; show, with some bright spots here and there.

The same time frame for Angel had more &quot;meat&quot; on the stories, and started building several arcs right from the jump.  I consider this simply Joss coming more into his own as a better story teller.  Nothing bad or good, I just think that Angel started off on a higher point because of the experience of Buffy, but also had higher (and fewer) low points than Buffy did over the entire series run.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comparing Seasons 1-3 of Buffy with Seasons 1-3 of Angel does a disservice to Buffy, IMO.</p>
<p>It took Buffy a season and a half to really hit a stride.  &#8220;Halloween&#8221; and &#8220;Lie to Me&#8221; for me was where the story began to build an arc I could appreciate, rather than be the &#8220;vampire chase of the week&#8221; show, with some bright spots here and there.</p>
<p>The same time frame for Angel had more &#8220;meat&#8221; on the stories, and started building several arcs right from the jump.  I consider this simply Joss coming more into his own as a better story teller.  Nothing bad or good, I just think that Angel started off on a higher point because of the experience of Buffy, but also had higher (and fewer) low points than Buffy did over the entire series run.</p>
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		<title>By: seanahan</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgeeking.com/2008/06/29/why-i-love-angel-more-than-buffy/comment-page-1/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>seanahan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 01:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgeeking.com/?p=6#comment-22</guid>
		<description>When I think about Buffy, I think about Season 3.  The best characters, the best stories, the best villains certainly, and the last days of high school.  Perhaps it was because I was still in high school, but I think Buffy was irrevocably changed by graduation day.  Since there was no Angel at this point, you can&#039;t compare the two.  One is forced to compare the first 4 seasons of Angel with the last 4 seasons of Buffy, and Angel will win this battle every time.  If you have to compare the first 3 seasons of Angel with the first 3 seasons of Buffy, I think Buffy wins that one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I think about Buffy, I think about Season 3.  The best characters, the best stories, the best villains certainly, and the last days of high school.  Perhaps it was because I was still in high school, but I think Buffy was irrevocably changed by graduation day.  Since there was no Angel at this point, you can&#8217;t compare the two.  One is forced to compare the first 4 seasons of Angel with the last 4 seasons of Buffy, and Angel will win this battle every time.  If you have to compare the first 3 seasons of Angel with the first 3 seasons of Buffy, I think Buffy wins that one.</p>
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		<title>By: casualobserver</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgeeking.com/2008/06/29/why-i-love-angel-more-than-buffy/comment-page-1/#comment-12</link>
		<dc:creator>casualobserver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:29:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgeeking.com/?p=6#comment-12</guid>
		<description>A whole heartedly agree that Angel has a stronger story Arc then buffy. Although the show never got the seven or eight seasons it deserved, the series was able to have more drama and character evolution then must shows get in twice the time. Angel to me is more of a &#039;pulp comic&#039; then Buffy, and every episode had darker tones, with the same Joss humor that Buffy and Firefly fans crave.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A whole heartedly agree that Angel has a stronger story Arc then buffy. Although the show never got the seven or eight seasons it deserved, the series was able to have more drama and character evolution then must shows get in twice the time. Angel to me is more of a &#8216;pulp comic&#8217; then Buffy, and every episode had darker tones, with the same Joss humor that Buffy and Firefly fans crave.</p>
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		<title>By: Summer Brooks</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgeeking.com/2008/06/29/why-i-love-angel-more-than-buffy/comment-page-1/#comment-8</link>
		<dc:creator>Summer Brooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:27:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgeeking.com/?p=6#comment-8</guid>
		<description>No, I also mean the series, not just the characters.

I promise I will finish this essay, and detail my reasons why I think &lt;em&gt;Angel&lt;/em&gt; is actually a richer story than &lt;em&gt;Buffy&lt;/em&gt;, not just a deeper, darker (and better) standalone character.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I also mean the series, not just the characters.</p>
<p>I promise I will finish this essay, and detail my reasons why I think <em>Angel</em> is actually a richer story than <em>Buffy</em>, not just a deeper, darker (and better) standalone character.</p>
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		<title>By: shane</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgeeking.com/2008/06/29/why-i-love-angel-more-than-buffy/comment-page-1/#comment-7</link>
		<dc:creator>shane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:21:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgeeking.com/?p=6#comment-7</guid>
		<description>Oh, you mean the characters. What about the shows? I loved both. Angel was darker so probably just pips Buffy at the post for me. Pity David is doing stuff like Bones now though. Seems a waste. And what about Spike? Probably my favourite character that wasn&#039;t Cordelia or Faith or Fred or Darla or Anya or Kennedy or... hmm... I sense a theme. I think I will stop now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, you mean the characters. What about the shows? I loved both. Angel was darker so probably just pips Buffy at the post for me. Pity David is doing stuff like Bones now though. Seems a waste. And what about Spike? Probably my favourite character that wasn&#8217;t Cordelia or Faith or Fred or Darla or Anya or Kennedy or&#8230; hmm&#8230; I sense a theme. I think I will stop now.</p>
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		<title>By: fred</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgeeking.com/2008/06/29/why-i-love-angel-more-than-buffy/comment-page-1/#comment-3</link>
		<dc:creator>fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgeeking.com/?p=6#comment-3</guid>
		<description>As a tv series Angel held my interest a lot more than Buffy, it didn&#039;t go into angst overload very often. And for some reason it did seem a bigger world. The exception being Season 5 of Buffy, now that season kicked ass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a tv series Angel held my interest a lot more than Buffy, it didn&#8217;t go into angst overload very often. And for some reason it did seem a bigger world. The exception being Season 5 of Buffy, now that season kicked ass.</p>
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